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  • Episode 17: Laying the Groundwork for Music Success with Levi Burwell

Episode 17: Laying the Groundwork for Music Success with Levi Burwell

In this episode, "Groundwork For Artists" author Levi Burwell discusses his 10-step Blueprint for packaging up your artistry and positioning it in front of the right people, using tools right at our fingertips. With this blueprint, success suddenly becomes both measurable and attainable. Keep in mind that there really are no industry secrets — there's just hard work, organization, and focusing on the right things in the correct order.

You'll discover:

  • Are You An Artist? Overwhelmed? Do This.
  • The Biggest Playlisting Mistake Most Artists Are Making
  • How To Develop Your Brand As An Artist
  • How Often Should Artists Post?
  • Focus on These 3 Platforms
  • What All Artists MUST Have To Succeed
  • How Often Should Artists Release Music?

Levi Burwell is an artist development consultant, songwriter, multi-instrumentalist, entrepreneur, and author who earned a 4-year Presidential Scholarship to the prestigious Berklee College of Music, and graduated in 2017 with a degree in music business. Shortly thereafter, Levi moved to Nashville, TN, where he has immersed himself in the music industry, written songs released by various recording artists, and played countless live shows. Amidst the daily grind working with hundreds of artists and musicians, Levi began to notice the absence of a defined strategy for growing an organic fan base. So, he honed his passion for music marketing and artist development, and set out on a mission to unravel the mystique surrounding the concept of “making it” in today’s ever-changing music industry.

Levi's Website: https://www.groundworkforartists.com/
Get Levi's Book "Groundwork for Artists" here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B08Z5LSKRY

Get the FREE "How To Sell More Merch" Course: https://members.musicmoney.tv/merch-course-registration/

Get the FREE Facebook Ads for Music Course: https://members.musicmoney.tv/register-here/

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Listen to the Podcast:


Barry Nicholson (00:00):

Well, Hey, welcome to the Music Money podcast. Today I am excited to have a special guest Levi Burwell. Levi is an artist development consultant, songwriter, multi-instrumentalist entrepreneur and author who earned a four-year presidential scholarship to the prestigious Berkeley College of Music and graduated in 2017 with a degree in music business.

He is the author of the book Groundwork for Artists, which is referred to as the new blueprint for growing a fan base. In the book he shows you how to start laying the groundwork for your artist's career, so you can achieve attainable goals that align with your creative vision. Levi, welcome to the Music Money podcast. How are you today?

Levi Burwell (00:40):

Thanks for having me.

Barry Nicholson (00:42):

My pleasure. Well, first of all, before we dive in, cause you've got a lot of great stuff to cover. I'd really like to get a little bit of your background. Where did you grow up?

Levi Burwell (00:50):

Yeah, definitely. So I actually grew up in a very rural small town in Ohio called Ottawa. And so I always tell people if you know where Detroit is and south of that is Toledo, Ohio a little bit farther. South is Bowling Green, Bowling Green Sate University. And then we're like 45 minutes south of that. So a very small town.

Barry Nicholson (01:14):

That's funny. I actually just got back from, uh, Oberlin. Are you familiar with Oberlin? Yeah, my daughter is a very keen on going to college at Oberlin college. So she, we just got back from there last week and thing that just freaked me out. That's that's extremely north Ohio and it's August and we got out, I'm like, oh God, I need to be wearing pants and a jacket still weird. And it's August I'm in Florida where, you know, when I left, it was 92 degrees with a heat index of 110 and it's like, you know, it was just so weird. It's like, wow, being right there on those great lakes, man, that, that cool air comes off of there.

Levi Burwell (01:53):

That makes a huge difference. Definitely being right next to the great lakes.

Barry Nicholson (01:57):

So, okay. So you're, you're in a small town, Ohio. So when did you start playing music?

Levi Burwell (02:02):

Probably when I was about four or five. I think I remember coming down on Christmas morning and there was a guitar behind the recliner waiting for me. They set that present aside, but I grew up very musical family. My dad played, all of his siblings played, my mom and her siblings all played in March to drum Corps, when they grew up. So it was kind of always around me. Um, so it was very young, about four or five years old.

Barry Nicholson (02:31):

Okay. So do you just play guitar? Do you play other instruments?

Levi Burwell (02:33):

So I played guitar at first guitar and drums, I would say. And then gradually learned piano. I actually went to Berkeley on trombone. That's what I got my best presidential scholarship on. So I did a lot of jazz bands, a lot of big band stuff, swing music. And that ended up playing that at Berkeley. I played bass and sang in a rock band back home in Ohio. We played a bunch of different venues around our hometown. So yeah, I recently started teaching myself the mandolin.

Barry Nicholson (03:06):

So anytime I hear trombone, we actually, had a trombone player. I don't know if you know about my band, we're an eight piece funk band with a three-piece horn section. And for many years we had a trombone player. We actually kind of switched that out with the baritone sax. So having graduated with, you know, that's kind of situation in Berkeley probably could say, you could probably handle my gig. I think you could probably handle it

Levi Burwell (03:29):

Just give me a call.

Barry Nicholson (03:31):

Yeah. Sight reading, you know, and that's the thing that, that has amazed me with horn players since we, cause I didn't know anything about charts and that kind of stuff. I mean, I knew about charts, but I didn't know that when I started a horn funk band, it was like, the expectation was, Hey dude, where's the chart, you know?

So they'd show up to the gig and, and these guys, these cats can all sight read really, really well. Definitely. But that's their expectation. And so it was like, and charts are expensive too, man. It's like, yeah. So I, you know, we needed like, I guess it would have been around 35, 40 songs to be able to even get a gig. Right. You know,

Levi Burwell (04:10):

Gigs, right. Yeah. Yeah. And

Barry Nicholson (04:12):

These charts were like, I can't remember what I was paying at the time. It was like 20 bucks a piece or something like that. And I was like, I was doing the math and I'm like, oh my God, there's no way I can do this. And I ended up finding a guy that had like this big, massive catalog of charts and it was like 500 bucks, but it had almost every song in it that I wanted to do.

And the other stuff that was actually pretty interesting. So I have thousands of charts that I bought for like, that was, it was kind of a rude awakening, but, but it was cool because, you know, I mean the skill level that these guys have, cause I mean, I can read music, but just not very well,

Levi Burwell (04:50):

Definitely. I mean, here's the thing I think with horn players too, is I think most of the time you could probably just say money by having them write out the charts because, because they're used to sight reading and they're used to being given so many different types of charts, they probably have their own way of wanting to see it.

Barry Nicholson (05:07):

Yeah. We actually tried that in the beginning of honey with a guy that played trombone, his name is his, not his actual name, surprise surprises, James Dabone you gotta look him up though. He's a smokin hot bone player really got that new Orleans sound. He was with a band until recently called Ari and the Alibis. And they got this really sexy female lead singer and a guy that was just blazing hot on trombone. It really interesting kind of ska sound, uh, there another local band that, you know, from the bars. But anyway, but I know it's funny. I, I didn't realize, I didn't know you were a big on the bone like that.

Levi Burwell (05:46):

It’s funny because I got to Berkeley and I, they threw me in some, because of my scholarship. They thrown me in so many different ensembles at college, just on they, they needed a trombone player for this one or a trombone player for that one. And I, it kind of burned me out a little bit. Um, and so I think by probably my third year of college, um, getting closer and when I graduated, I just dove my end. Don't my head into the music business part and just focused on music business. So. Okay. So that,

Barry Nicholson (06:19):

That, from what I understand that led to you are heading to Nashville. I mean, yeah. So why did you, why Nashville? What, what made you make that move? It's pretty bold move.

Levi Burwell (06:28):

So when I got to Berkeley, um, it was definitely a bit of a culture shock for me coming from a town of 4,000 people graduated with a hundred and that was the largest town in a 30 mile radius. Um, John into a city like Boston, that was immediate, just a wall of sound and of culture shock. And so I always kind of had it in mind. If I was going to go to one of the music cities, it would probably be Nashville because it's got the best of both worlds. It has that small town vibe, but it's still city, obviously it's music city. It's got music grow with all the companies because I'm wanting to do music business. Um, like all my friends that are producers and writers were going out to LA less people were going to New York. So I figured, you know, Nashville is probably the place for me.

Barry Nicholson (07:16):

Um, okay. So when you got to Nashville, then you said you really wanted to focus on the music business. It seemed like people would have their act together. Is that what you found or was it something that,

Levi Burwell (07:27):

Yeah, so when I first got to Nashville, I started songwriting a bunch. That was my first thing. Um, I've always song written since I started playing instruments and I knew that I wanted to song write in some capacity. So when I got down here, I started playing writer's rounds, started meeting artists and songwriters that were playing in town. And eventually when a few of them started cutting the songs that I'd written with them, I realized that they didn't really have much of a strategy for marketing, marketing their music, other than what the hype has been the past few years of, I'm just going to get on as many, a Spotify playlist as possible, and that's going to be my marketing strategy. Um, and then I had the realization it's not really working. So, so that's when I started researching kind of observing the local artists that were being successful that were having success and saying, okay, what are they doing differently? Cause they're not just playlisting. They're not just trying to get on a bunch of platelets and that's it. Um, and so eventually I started doing that, started working with a couple of artists to try to see, okay, let's, let's just try this, see if it works, let's try this, see if it works. And eventually had all this research and all this, all these notes and spreadsheets and decided to turn it into a book. So,

Barry Nicholson (08:46):

Yeah. So yeah, I mean, in your book, you lay out a blueprint. I mean, what's, what's the purpose of having a blueprint? Would, why would that be something that you feel like somebody would need?

Levi Burwell (08:58):

Definitely. So I'd like to think of groundwork for artists as a marketing roadmap for independent artists. So obviously being an independent artist is super overwhelming and you know, there's so many things to keep track of aside from actually being the artist, writing, recording, and performing, um, you know, so I did turn it into, you know, a 10 step blueprint so that each step, the way it's laid out, they, they each build on top of the last one. Um, so for instance, in artists needs to define their brand before they can put out branded content, they need to put up branded content before they can start paying for advertisements to attract people to that branded content, because otherwise they're going to come. Those, those people that they're trying to target are going to come back to an identity crisis or just random posts thrown here and there. Um, so it, it was kind of, you know, step-by-step, here's how to implement it. And once they're all working in tandem, the 10 steps it does, it really does build a solid foundation that, you know, you can actually attract an audience and grow a fan base and sell tickets, sell merchandise, um, generate an income through those things. So you can have a sustainable career. Um, if that makes sense,

Barry Nicholson (10:19):

Does it, when you kind of hit a little bit on, on the mindset that you found with some of the artists in Nashville, it was, you know, I'm just going to playlist and that's, that's the name of the game, right? And, uh, in fact, you kind of describes some different, great mindset and not so great mindset that you see with artists. Can you kind of shed a little light on what you kind of see going on right now in the play and marketplace? Definitely.

Levi Burwell (10:42):

I think it's similar to social media in general. I think most artists are looking at numbers alone and they're using that as their only metric of success. So they are trying to get on every playlist possible. They're just trying to increase their follower count, even if that means going through bots that make followers, um, trying to get as many streams as possible on a song through bot driven platelets. Um, instead of just ditching those shortcuts, if you will, and actually, you know, nurturing a fan base the right way, you know, defining your brand, making sure that you are setting an actual image that people want to latch on to.

Barry Nicholson (11:24):

So let's talk about branding. I mean, cause that's, that's probably overwhelming for, uh, for an artist to start when they start off, you know, what does, how do you even start off with it with our habit, figure out what your brand is. I mean, if there are any kind of tips that you could, you could give somebody who's new that really don't know. I mean, they may have a sound, they don't have a look or they don't have a, an aesthetic.

Levi Burwell (11:48):

What I always tell artists is that they should first try to create an artist story. And so they should draw from inspiration from their past experiences, their upbringing, um, those types of things to actually get a story of who they are and who they want to portray themselves as the artist. And from there, you know, go, go on somewhere like Pinterest and just start looking at, okay, what actually can you see when you listen to your music? Uh, a good example. I always, I always throw out is Ariana Grande. Her brand looks like what her music sounds like. If you look at her album cover, or if you've listened to her song, you're seeing Chris Derrick, you're seeing the clothes that she wears, the colors that she has on social media. It all kind of goes together. So I say, just go on Pinterest, turn your music on and start picking out the things that attract you.

Barry Nicholson (12:46):

You know, it's funny as you were saying that I didn't, I don't, I'd like to say that I did this intentionally, but I really didn't, but, um, just full divulge it's there, but we have, um, a promotion that's been going on ongoing for us for a long time, um, where people can get our CD for free, just pay the shipping and handling and we've sold thousands and thousands of CDs that way. Um, and I have an email that goes out the first thing when they first get it. And it says who, who in the heck, Reverend Barry on the funk, you know, and, and what it is, it's our story, but it's our story. And it's told in a way it's a little bit of a rant, but not in a kind of way. It's basically, you know, cause I'm, I have a few years on you in case you didn't notice, um, you know, but our average listener or guys that are my age a little bit older, maybe a little bit younger, um, and they can remember a time when bands, you know, in the seventies had horn sections, you know, I mean, cause if you really sit and think about it, there's, I mean, Stevie wonder, uh, but even like, you know, Huey Lewis and the news, there's so many of these, these older groups that, you know, uh, hauling notes, you know, if you listen to some of these stuff and actually, I mean, God, didn't go all the way back to the 1940s and 50, 60 seventies to Chicago

Levi Burwell (14:04):

Earth, wind and fire. Yeah,

Barry Nicholson (14:06):

Yeah. Groups like that. But even not even that, I mean sometimes, you know, like even Genesis had some songs that had some horns in it and stuff. And um, so I go on this big rant about, you know, how record labels don't give bands record deals anymore. I mean, and it's, it's crazy if you really think about it. I mean, some of the most popular bands, like even in the nineties are, um, Hootie and the Blowfish U2, um, you know, and then in the seventies, of course, Fleetwood Mac, all these, all these, there were bands, there were groups that had, you know, and, and I, so I talk about that and I talk about, well, you know, we're, I mean, yes, we're a funk band. We're also, uh, we also have a big sound. You know, we have a Hammond B3, we've got, uh, we've got a Wurlitzer, we've got a Rhodes, we've got female singer.

Barry Nicholson (14:53):

We didn't do lots of pack of vocals and all this stuff in our originals. And our, our production is very full, you know? And if you listen to that, those sounds of the seventies and the sound of the eighties and especially groups like earth, wind, and fire and all the types of stuff, they had that big sound, you know, kind of that, you know, that, that wall of sound kind of vibe. And I said, and so we're bringing that back. Gotcha. You want to come on board with us, you know, enjoy the ride, that kind of thing. And that's our story. It really is. You know, it's not about me, it's not about my deep lyrics or any of that kind of stuff. It's, it's really, it's about the music. It's about the fact that we play real instruments and it's about

Levi Burwell (15:31):

The audience and their experience. Having listened to those bands too, as soon as you send that email immediately, they have nostalgia, you know, thinking of what they they've loved to use the list to, and

Barry Nicholson (15:43):

As a cover band, just playing that kind of music. But of course we started as a dance band cause people, you know, the good thing is that people really love to dance to September by earth, wind and fire. I mean, even, even Bruno Mars, uptown funk kind of brought that sound back and he's even doing, he's doing it even more with the new stuff that he's putting out. Um, you know, it has even more of a retro vibe, but you know, our thing is just like, you know, we're all about playing real instruments, real singers, real harmonies, you know, no, Auto-Tune that kind of stuff. And I don't really diss on those types of groups. I just know that my, my demographic that really resonates with them and it's the truth it's, it's authentic, you know? So I think that, that authenticity, and that's the first message that they see for me absolutely is all about that.

Barry Nicholson (16:28):

You know? So, and then after that, I'll, I'll put out like emails to talk about. In fact, I just did one last week that here's my top 13 favorite albums of all time. Um, only one of them was funk and then there's some of my others and I mean, I go on, I've got some heavy metal stuff in there. I've got some, you know, Radiohead's kid a, which is a completely weird, you know, but, but there it's all about, you know, cause it's about the music and a lot of it's some of the old school, but not all of it, but anyway.

Levi Burwell (16:56):

Yeah, definitely. And like you said, what you're doing is you're creating a brand and that brand involves, you know, it includes the influences that you have, the inspiration that you draw from. And I think if you know that your demographic or psychographic is, you know, they like the same thing then they're, they're going to latch on. So

Barry Nicholson (17:16):

Yeah, absolutely. Cool. Um, okay. Now I thought this was interesting. So you talked about, you've talked in the book about an artists ecosystem. I hadn't really heard that before, how, what what's an artists ecosystem.

Levi Burwell (17:29):

So I like to think of it as their online world of websites and social media platforms, streaming services, and certain their profiles on streaming services and how those are connected. So, you know, if, if a random Joe Schmoe stumbles upon artists post or an advertisement or their music, or maybe they saw them at a live show and now they go to look them up online in artists wants to make sure that that person, that person, that Joe Schmo can navigate their socials and immediately gets in the music immediately get to the merge or immediately gets their website. Um, and if there's any hiccups, I mean, you, you know, if you're scrolling and you have a hiccup or something doesn't load correctly, or if it's something way updated, you just move on to the next thing, you know, you, you just scroll past. So it's, it's all that, all those different websites connected. And then on top of that, it's the underlying metadata. Um, so it's a little bit of SEO. Um, so all of that metadata, as long as it's correct and organized and clean, then it's going to trigger things like, you know, if you bring the artists up on Google, that artist's music is going to be right there, their socials are going to be right there. Um, all because you just had some basic organization of organizing your metadata, making sure it all is clean and cohesive. So

Barry Nicholson (18:58):

Yeah. So as you, as you're saying that I can, I can feel my skin crawling just a little bit, because I have a funny feeling that, you know, some of my website, maybe some of my links aren't quite work. I already know I've got like two merge platforms. I've got, uh, I got WooCommerce over here and I got Shopify over here and I really don't want to get rid of Shopify, but I really need to move it all over. Or I'm sure there's some broken links. So, um, do you have something to help somebody that's like, okay, you know, I know I need to fix this stuff, but I need to keep it organized. Is that kind of what your book is? That one of the things

Levi Burwell (19:31):

Definitely. I, yeah, there's, there's a few different, I guess bullet points, if you will, of what you can do to, to try to clean up your ecosystem, um, and put it in a position where it's going to trigger good SEO, it's going to trigger people, being able to find what they need to find when they, when they stream your music or when they see you at a live show or when they get that email. Um, and it really is just an organization overhaul, even something like copyrights and making sure that your pro registrations are correct and all that kind of metadata, it's all stuff that subconsciously artists really stress out about when they, when they look at an artist career and they start getting really overwhelmed at the business aspect of it, it's really those finite details, like, you know, metadata and copyrights and royalty registrations and links and make them sing, making sure things are connected. So they're in the book. They, yeah, there's step-by-step of what you can do to clean up that ecosystem.

Barry Nicholson (20:33):

Okay, fantastic. So one of the things that, you know, cause as I'm hearing you talk, it's like, you know, I always tell people it's like the, the, you know, the cool thing about the music business right now, you know, this is the music money podcast. You can, you can go direct to fans. You don't need a record label. That's, you know, that's kind of like a lot of artists kind of know that they've, they've heard that before you don't necessarily even need an independent record label. I mean, it might help, but what, but that's also the bad news because it means that you have to do everything yourself and you know, those little ticky-tacky things. And I think w w what's your book. And as I, as I read through it, it was, I liked the fact that it, it was, it was step-by-step it's like, these are the things that are most important focus on.

Barry Nicholson (21:17):

They don't worry about that yet. Let's focus on this for now and then it just one built on the other. Um, you know, so, so content is a big piece and that's the one, again that I think I struggle with. It's like, gee, what interesting. What's, what's interesting that I have to say today. What w you know, I, what selfies can I post? You know, that, that kind of thing. I mean, I'm not into that, even though I'm a marketing guy, um, you know, I do content, I do struggle with the content key peeping constant content. Um, I mean, how important is that what's, what's an idea of artists that do it badly and artists that do it well, what do you think?

Levi Burwell (21:57):

Definitely. I think that it's extremely important, important nowadays. Um, I think that if an artist isn't posting every day or every other day, um, then that's, I think that's a big decision making factor for a potential fan. If they stumble upon an artist social media, because we all live on social media, that's where we keep track of artists and our favorite music for the most part. Then I think that they're, you know, they're going to be more likely to scroll past if they don't see that the artist is active on there. Um, I think it's just part of how the music industry has changed and how, uh, business has changed, but definitely a content strategy. I mean, that's direct marketing, one-on-one right there. You're you have your fans right there at your disposal, and they're going to see that post as soon as they get on social media. Um, and if you're doing it every day, that's, you just end their ear all the time in front of their, in front of their eyes. Um, so the more you do it, I think the more that they can latch on.

Barry Nicholson (23:01):

Yeah, absolutely. It's funny when you're saying that I was thinking about there was a band back before I think I haven't started this one. We've been very other about eight years, but we've been real hot, heavy on Facebook for since the very beginning, probably the two year or two before I remember distinctly that there was this band that was very similar to ours that were horn band, you know, um, funk, good, you know, guys singer and everything. And they had a music video. They put out, they were called gooseneck. That was the name of the band. I got a bad name. And, um, the tune was pretty good and I remembered it. It went viral somewhat. I can't remember if it was an ad or if it was just a post that was getting shared, but it made it around to me. I shared it.

Barry Nicholson (23:42):

I thought it was pretty good. I thought they were a good band. It was just one of those in the studio videos and are very typical. And so they had all this vitality going on. And then I think for a while, I remember seeing some posts that they were doing and they really must have been big steel. The Dan fans, they were like talking about, oh, steely Dan and dah, dah, dah, dah. And then I didn't hear anything else from him ever now for all. I know they broke up, um, you know, which happens. But I just, I always think about that as being, they were, they were a very similar music to ours and ours. You know, our video has been seen well over three, 4 million times. Um, you know, and it just, because it gets constantly gets shared, but I constantly promote it or videos. Um, you know, and they had the opportunity, they were the same style of music, same fan base, same everything, but they just stopped posting, you know, and again, maybe they broke up, I don't know where maybe they broke up because they thought nobody was paying attention to them, but they were so, you know, it could have seen it in the metrics.

Levi Burwell (24:46):

It's crazy. It really is. I think people, because attention spans are so short today that something like that, if somebody stops, if an artist stops posting, then it's not easy. It's not difficult for their fan base to forget, or for the people that follow them to forget about them. They'll probably, there's probably people that still follow them today. And don't even realize that they're following the page because they just, it's easy to forget. Yeah.

Barry Nicholson (25:16):

Like if you go, like, if you look deep in the recesses of Facebook and you go into your pages, you follow and you're like, wow. You know, back when I was into that or back, you know, I mean, like a walk back in time, it's kind of long in the tooth. I mean, it's, they've been around for many years. Yeah. I know what I posted nine years ago. And I still ha back when my hair was a lot darker, you know, after a while I'm like, Hey, Facebook stopped showing me that back when my kids were still babies, they're getting older going to college. Um, but, uh, okay, so now content is different than engagement. What w what does successful engagement look like? I mean, what what's, maybe let's define that.

Levi Burwell (25:59):

Definitely. So I think engagement, when I think of engagement, I'm thinking of proactively reaching out and following and engaging with new fans. So commenting on their posts and liking their posts, you know, sending them a message like, Hey, I see you do this too. Like humor light to them, for example. Um, I also see it as using good hashtags that are going to show up on their explore page, uh, for, for potential fans. They might be following a certain hashtag that if they see that artist post, if it grabs their attention, though, they'll become a fan, but they'll become a follower. Um, so proactively trying to reach out directly to a new potential fans in the form of a direct interaction, or just liking and commenting. Um, so that sort of thing.

Barry Nicholson (26:51):

Okay. Yeah. Cause I don't think some people, I mean, it hashtags that was, I remember, I didn't even know what a hashtag was when I first discovered Twitter again. And this has been many years ago now, you know, I was like, what the heck has a hashtag? You know? And, and, and, and, but that was the first platform that I can recall that was really driven by hashtags. So I started understanding that. And then of course, Instagram very much driven by hashtags as far as being able to get free traffic from people that follow certain hashtags, but Tik TOK. I mean, it's, that's the name of the game? Pretty much talk. Right. Definitely. Um, in fact, I even heard somebody say that that, uh, Tik TOK, they will give you 200 views. They'll just show your show, your video to 200 people just randomly to see if your video will happen to go viral, which is the polar opposite. I do, I think.

Levi Burwell (27:45):

Yeah, exactly. Definitely. And that's what I heard too. I think somebody said that Tik TOK they'll show it to, you know, a certain number of random people. And that's how the, by the viral sensations happen. It's a little bit, it's not all luck, but sometimes it is lucky who they actually show that video to, because if those hundred people watch a certain percentage of the video, then they're probably going to send it to a hundred more, a thousand more. And it just has that snowball effect alongside that. Definitely the hashtags. Yeah.

Barry Nicholson (28:17):

It's all about Tik. TOK is all about things going viral and it's, it's almost like the algorithm is saying, Hey, we're just an algorithm. Is this funny? Is this, you know, is this thought provoking? Is this cool? What do you, what do you think people go, Hey, now that's funny. And they, and they share it. I mean, boom. It blows up. And so, yeah, it's, it's interesting

Levi Burwell (28:39):

At the same time. It does have, you know, there's, there's a little bit of strategy that goes behind it too, because I think if, if certain artists or just random, you know, tectonic users in general, if they're keeping up with the trends, if they know how to catch somebody's attention the first second, then if they're posting multiple times per day of those attention, grabbing videos, combine that with the luck, combine that with the hashtags. I mean, that's gonna put them in a more opportunistic position to go viral. Um, so there really is a little bit of strategy behind it. So what, you know, speaking

Barry Nicholson (29:13):

Of trends, I mean, there's been a few things that have come around. I mean, like you think Periscope, Periscope was a thing for a while. It still exists, I guess. Whereas Twitch got really pop. I mean, Twitch has been around for years, the video cameras, but, um, it just got real popular when the pandemic first hit. And now what do you think is it should an artist focus on one platform? Should they, I mean, it's, there's only so many hours a day. Yeah. How do they, how do they best use their time? Should they focus on these trendy platforms? You know, like Tik talk at first, people were like, I don't know. What do you think?

Levi Burwell (29:51):

Definitely. So in my eyes, I think artists should primarily focus on three platforms and that's tic dock, Instagram and keeping up with their Spotify. Um, I don't think, I think Twitter has gone a little bit past that or is moved on from that a little bit from the music world and is a little more centered about sports and maybe politics and celebrities, that sort of thing. Facebook, I think Facebook goes a little bit long side Instagram because you can post on Facebook and have it go to Instagram. If you want, you can do your advertising for both on Facebook. Um, but primarily I think if, if an artist can master and create a routine for posting content on Instagram and on Tik TOK, and then obviously keep up with their, their Spotify, um, and their streaming stuff, um, then that's, I think that's ballgame. If they can focus on those two, then that's a really good start.

Barry Nicholson (30:58):

That's that's great advice. Now we were, I don't want to get too far. I'll tend to go on rabbit trails. You gotta watch me. Um, but, uh, engagement, we were talking about that and you brought up the topic of a street team. Okay. What the heck is a street team?

Levi Burwell (31:13):

I think of it as, and you can, I mean, maybe, you know, a little bit more on this too, but I think of a street team is just your closest. It can be your closest friends and family. It can be your biggest fans. Um, just the people that if you post something, no matter what it is, they're going to be commenting and giving you positive vibes and, and rooting for you. Um, so I think the street team is good for that for engagement, for commenting on your posts, for liking your posts and kind of kick-starting that, that engagement, um, eventually down the line, doing some, some deeper marketing things for you, um, and actually going out on the street, you know, where the term actually comes from. Uh, but yet I think it's your closest friends and family. It's the people that are rooting for you, your, your dedicated fan base, um, the people you can rely on to, to spread the word, do actual word of mouth marketing.

Barry Nicholson (32:08):

Yeah, it's funny. I was thinking about back in the, in the nineties, um, when I was trying to get a record deal and all that stuff, and I was in Dallas, Texas. And, uh, this is at a time when this is when grunge was just hidden, huge, right. Um, I'm dating myself, but Hey, that was the last great rock and roll revolution. It was, I, I am glad that I was part, I was there at least a witness at all, but when I think of street teams, and this is one of the mistakes that I think my band at the time that we made there was a, in there still is an area of town called deep Ellum. And it was three streets where they had like all the hot clubs where all the bands would play. And there was like four or five bands playing every night.

Barry Nicholson (32:48):

And they're all original acts. There was a band called the Toadies that got signed out of there, uh, tripping Daisy. There was some other big bands that came from there. But when I think of street teams, like it was literally, it was a battle of the P the posters, the gig posters, you know, so there was like a telephone pole that had nothing but staples in it. And, you know, and these guys would just come on and they'd staple their posters with about their band gig. And you'd always have that. We have these posters with, remember that guy, remember that movie alien? Yeah. The guy that made that the design for alien came from a guy named MC Escher. He was a guy that made these really super creepy, like alien images and stuff. And I think that inspired the alien movie, or maybe, I don't know which came first, but so we put like these real, super creepy, like, we were a metal band, you know, we were like hard alternative.

Barry Nicholson (33:38):

And, um, but they were, you know, typically they were your buddies, right. It wasn't, you know, and, and in the beginning, so, you know what I noticed with a lot of those bands that succeeded back then, I mean, cause it's hard getting people to show up for your gigs, man. You know, when you're the first band that starts at eight o'clock and nobody's even out, you know, they're still having dinner or whatever. Um, and, but they would be your buddies, you know, and they would go out and they'd staple posters to the, to the telephone poles and put flyers on the, on the cars and all that kind of stuff. And talk to their buddies about you. Krista was wanting to get in for free, you know, which they're going to do that. I guess they should get on the guest list, you know, and pay the whopping five bucks cover to get in.

Barry Nicholson (34:18):

Um, you know, but those are the guys that would go to the wall for ya because, you know, you're, you're partying with them on, you know, on Friday night and, you know, drinking some beers or whatever. And we didn't, we didn't really, we had some of that relationship with some people, but I noticed that some of the bands that really had it going on, I mean, they worked down there like their day jobs. They were the guy with the nose ring that worked at the record store, you know, and he was in the cool band that played that last Saturday night that opened for, you know, I mean, cause Nirvana played there back when they were coming through town, you know, in their early days. I mean, it was, it was a big deal. It was a, it was a scene. Um, it's

Levi Burwell (34:55):

Funny. I even, even over the past couple of years though, I've seen people doing that same thing, posting their flyers on telephone poles all around Nashville and it makes it, I think it's made a big difference for certain artists. You know, they actually, if they have like in grant work, the other preceding steps kind of going in motion first, but if they're doing that too, I've, I've noticed that it'll work, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Barry Nicholson (35:21):

I mean it, because people want to be part of something that's special, you know, they want it with, you know, they're curious about things and I mean, I also, you know, I have to say that the biggest thing that's, that's worked for us as a band. I mean, you just got to have an excellent music video. I mean, we've, we've had, we have one song that I'll probably, you know, until sales stop, you know, I've still, I start losing money on a regular basis. I'm just going to keep promoting this one music video. Of course I'll post others, but there's no reason to stop. I mean, but the key is we have this song called love, shine that blew up for us and you know, but the music video, in fact, I got great advice from a consultant, um, named Carl hitch born. I got to throw a shout out to Carl.

Barry Nicholson (36:03):

He said, you know, cause I was consulting with him at the time about what my music video should do. And I had this concept video planned out and all this going on, all this thing. And he was like, dude, so you've already told me that you're like a great live band, right. You're known for your live show. Right. I'm like, yeah, yeah. And you said, would your fans come out if you did a music video and just played live and like, yeah, it's like do that. And that's what we did, man. And we captured lightning in a bottle for that music video. We had all these people are just down front. You know, it looks like the most exciting show ever. And it was, I mean, I was there, it was like, and we're not even playing live or lip-syncing, but we told those people that came, it was on a Sunday afternoon.

Barry Nicholson (36:45):

We just had this venue that we had a good relationship with. They let us film the video and we just told them, I was like, aren't you guys you're on camera. Let's, you know, let's freak out, you know, and they did. And it was so cool. And, and it, and it comes off in the music video. Yeah. So when people we'll watch it, they're like, man, this band, his song is rocking. That crowd looks like they're having the time of their life. Definitely. That's what we capture because that's really what our band is and you know, it it's like, um, yeah. So I think, uh, music, uh, a really good music video that just matches the matches the song and you gotta have her push. You gotta have a great song. Definitely. You know, um, you know, and if, and even if you're all like your cover band, I mean, dude, you're going to shoot yourself in the foot.

Barry Nicholson (37:31):

If you put out a crappy video, you know, some video that you took at some lame gig that you had at some, you know, some bar, you know, on, on an iPhone, you put that out on Facebook. You're just, you know, broadcasting how bad you suck. You, you just want to, you know, not to be negative, but I've seen a lot of that kind of thing going on. I mean, it's like a great music. Like we, I was in a band that played nothing but weddings for about two and a half years. And in Florida, the wedding market is huge. No, because they will do those beach weddings and stuff. For sure. We had one music, one video where we sing a bunch of different. Yeah. And that video booked well over a hundred thousand dollars worth of gigs just for us. We were, lip-sync the whole thing. The tracks that we're using were karaoke tracks. The thing, it wasn't even legit. And you know, it got a hundred thousand dollars worth of sales. So that would be my advice to artists is you got to have a good music video, spend the money. Um, okay. So, okay. Okay. So let's again, I'll go off on rabbit trails. Let's talk about rules, leasing music. So a big question. How should an artist release music and why

Levi Burwell (38:39):

That is totally, I really struggled with, I don't know if you've read that section of the book, but that I really struggled with defining a specific, you know, frequency of releasing music in the book, because I think it's different for every artist and artists have different budgets that they can't record themselves and they need to hire up producer, recording engineer. I think it's really just getting into the habit of writing often, um, building that habit. And definitely I made, don't be afraid to release imperfection. I think a lot of artists release music just a couple times a year because they're very self-conscious about how people are going to approach that song. And I think if, if you're releasing music in general, if it's pretty often, if it's like once a month, for example, or a couple of times a month, um, which is a lot, that's a lot of releases if it's singles.

Levi Burwell (39:39):

Um, but even just once a month, then I think that's great. Um, even once every couple of months, that's, that's better than just two times a year, you know, but I think, I think at the end of the day, it really comes down to just build, build the habit of writing pretty often so that you have those songs in your back pocket. And then, I mean, if you can re record yourself, then record as much as you can with your schedule. Um, if you have to pay a producer, then just budget accordingly, find a cheaper producer. If yours is charging up the loss, you know?

Barry Nicholson (40:16):

Yeah. I, and I've, it is kind of a hard topic because like I talked to the great band called the cold stares and talk to their drummer, um, they're kind of like Royal blood. They've got a, you know, kind of a two, two member band, but I talked to them and I said, it seems like you're releasing a song every month. How are you doing that? And he was just like, well, that's basically our album that we recorded in Nashville. We recorded 12 tracks and we're just slowly releasing them over time, you know? And then we'll, and they have like this album release that's upcoming and, and all that kind of thing. And I think they'll do some extra, you know, like bonus tracks or something like that when they released the album that's not available to online or what have you, but, you know, so I noticed they were staying real, you know, it's just like, well, that's just the way things are done now, man. You know, and, and he was kind of with me, he's just like, you know, back in the day, you just waited for the bands album to come out and you couldn't wait, you know, you went and got, bought the CD. You looked at the cover.

Levi Burwell (41:12):

I can that, I don't have it yet, but I'm waiting on Sergeant pepper, the final to come in the mail. It should be coming this week. But because it's one of my favorites of all time, but I definitely agree. We're in, we're in such a singles driven market now, um, that doing something like that, if you have a whole album prepared, just roll it out and singles, um, you're gonna keep people's attention longer and then you'll have the full product they're on Spotify or on online on your website to sell in the form of a vinyl or a CD. Yeah.

Barry Nicholson (41:46):

And then an early podcast interview. I did, I can't remember the guy's name, but at this point, but, um, you know, he was just like, he honestly kind of, you know, the, the, the monthly single release strategy, he's just like, look, I didn't know what I was doing, but I told myself that if I can't, if I'm trying to write music full time and I can't release one song a month, right. What, no, how do you put it? I can't write three minutes of music a month, but I need to, I need to start doing something else, you know? And I thought, well, that's kinda hidden below the belt a little bit, but you're absolutely right. You know, it's, it's really the truth. And then there was another thing that a guy had said, um, that really kind of stuck with me now, he was talking about sync placements, but it kind of, the principle behind this statement really applies across the board.

Barry Nicholson (42:32):

He said, he said, you know, I can't control how many sync placements I get. That's up to someone else, you know, to make that final decision, whether or not my song is going to be on their TV show or what have you. But what I can control is how many people I pitch essentially, or, you know, are how many, I mean, you could, if you really think about that, you break it down to the ridiculous. It's like, I can control how many hours that I spend every week or every, you know, how many minutes per day I spend writing songs that I will eventually send to somebody and say, there's a song I just did.

Levi Burwell (43:09):

Yeah. You can control the persistence. You can control the persistence. You can't necessarily control the results, but the more persistence is going to probably translate to more results eventually. Yeah.

Barry Nicholson (43:21):

I mean, I can, I can't really, and I think we're the songwriting thing. Cause I run into this issue is, is like about the, the whole, the muse, you know, does the muse show up? Well, the muse might show up more often. If I sit in front of that keyboard, that's sitting over there and I just start playing some stuff. Or if I sit down with my bass and start working on a groove, you know, maybe the mus is waiting for me to invite it, to play. You know? Um,

Levi Burwell (43:49):

My buddy, he, the other day said that he, I mean, he's making it a point. This is one of his new, you know, his new habits he's trying to implement is just 30 minutes a day. He's going to sit down and whether it's song ideas, just concept ideas. If it's just a little bit of a verse, if it's just a melody, a chord progression, he just wants to try writing for 30 minutes every day. And what's going to happen is that's not going to end up being just 30 minutes. Most of the time, most of the time, you're going to end up sitting there for longer and coming up with a lot more than just one idea. So

Barry Nicholson (44:21):

Yeah, I mean, just yesterday I had, well, I tell you what I did. I started, um, I had these drum beats, somebody put out a, uh, I think it was, was it Clyde Stubblefield? He's the, one of the former drummers for James Brown. It was actually kind of false advertising instead. It was like funk drum beats. It wasn't, he was playing, but they had, there was one cool rhythm that was going. And so I came up this chord progression and I was just letting the drums take me somewhere and sure enough, you know, I sat there and I wrote, I wrote a hook and I took the, I took my, this trusty microphone, put it in my wife's closet, which is also my vocal booth. And, you know, started laying down some lyrics. I had a direction on old lyrics that I was, uh, of, uh, you know, some books that I've been reading lately kind of got that, you know, frame of mine. I had a topic to write about. So it, it, it was, but it started with a drum beat. I like that. That's got a good groove and I laid down a bass groove and it was like, yeah, it just the whole thing. And you know, but it all started with me. I got up early, I got up like five o'clock in the morning because our dog was barking. Definitely just that myself in front of the computer and just started listening to that drum beat and going, okay. I think you can work with this. Yeah.

Levi Burwell (45:33):

It starts with developing a habit that's for sure.

Barry Nicholson (45:36):

Absolutely. So let's um, so now you've got your song written, oh, wait. Falling backwards. So now we got our song written, we've got our music video. Let's talk about marketing. Yeah. What kind of marketing and your experience with the most effective and why? So

Levi Burwell (45:54):

Definitely, I would say in, in groundwork for artists as a whole is marketing, for instance, I mean, even, even the branding stuff, that's, you know, you can't market anything. If you don't have a brand, um, I would say recently earned marketing. So the content and actually proactively engaging is going to work the best because it's going to result in actual fans. Um, past that, what I, what I roll out in the book is social media ads. Um, so Facebook paid actually paid on actual paid advertising. Um, so social media ads on Facebook and Instagram, um, you know, you can do Google ads if you want to, for instance, if you want to, if you want to direct people, if they search for your artist's name and you want them to go straight to your merge page, for example, um, then you can do some Google ads for your Mertz page specifically. Um, but mainly what I'm talking about in the book is social media ads like Facebook and Instagram, um, directly that specific audience.

Barry Nicholson (47:01):

Yeah. That's and I have to speak to this. I mean, well, for one I created a Facebook ads for music course. I don't know if you saw it on our page, but, um, it's free and you know, this is a shameless plug for a free thing. So in a way that's not shameless as it, but it's actually, you know, I have, and I got to just back up what you're saying, because Facebook ads have been absolutely incredible for us. Um, I'm spending $150 day right now on Facebook ads. Um, now people hear that number and they're like, oh my God, you must be rich. I'm like, no, because that means I'm making at least 151 every single day within sales. I don't, you know, actually makes a lot more than that. And you know, this there's a lot to this, but don't let that freak you out.

Barry Nicholson (47:48):

What I'm, what I'm saying is I'm not saying that to brag. I'm saying that to say, I can afford to spend 150 bucks a day with the, with the funnel that I have in place, because I'm making well more than that. But most importantly, I've been getting, I have six between six and 7,000 people that have bought our CD around the country. And I've also used the same strategy to get people, to download our music. I've used a strategy like gangbusters to do sell tickets, to live shows because the thing that's so amazing about Facebook ads, and again, this is in the free course, just go to music, money.tv. If you want to sign up for the free course, it's Facebook ads for music. There's like 12 modules in there. I walk you through, step-by-step it doesn't sell anything else. It's not some, you know, kind of weird backend thing for us to get you to sign up for something.

Barry Nicholson (48:36):

It's just, I gave it away for free. I actually had every intention of selling it. I made it about a year ago now. I'm just like, I'll give it away for free just to get people great content. Um, so I walk you through how we do the tickets, all that kind of stuff. But the thing that's so amazing about Facebook is that when the algorithm takes over and figures out, who will buy your, I mean, not just who will download your stuff for free as well, who will put their credit card out or go to their PayPal account and give you money for something. Yeah. It figures that out.

Levi Burwell (49:09):

It's like, it's crazy.

Barry Nicholson (49:11):

So I've been using, using what are called lookalike audiences. And I know you talk about that in the book, look, alike, audiences are what Facebook goes, okay. Here's a thousand people that took the action that you said that you wanted, like they wanted to buy something or they wanted to click on this or whatever. Oh, we have 2.5 million people that fit those exact profiles. Or they have over a thousand data points on every single person that has a Facebook account. They know everything. And I mean, everything, every website you go to might want to close a few tabs there. That's all just what I'm saying. Uh, you know, they know everything where you're going and they know if you're likely to buy music or if you're likely to download it for free they're nowhere. And it really is. And so like sometimes on Reddit, I'll have these people ask questions.

Barry Nicholson (49:56):

Like, I don't know what my music sound like. I know people always say that, but I don't know what I sound like. And I, what do you suggest? And I say, you've got to have somebody that you think is, sounds a little bit, like, just go with that. Artists get Facebook an idea, because your whole goal is to build a lookalike audience. If they say like, you know, you've got a music video to this weird song that you think doesn't sound like anybody. Maybe it sounds a little like radio hit. Okay, perfect. Radiohead, a few other artists. And then just let the algorithm start figuring out who's responding to your video and it will find people that will like your music.

Levi Burwell (50:35):

It's amazing. And, and I want to back up to what you said on top of that is the sales funnel thing. And that's exactly what, you know, my premise, right. And groundwork for artists was if you, because sure you can do the social media ads, but just to amp that up even more, if you do have a solid brand in place and your ecosystem is connected, so that that ad directs you to the right place and that can direct you to your music. So you can stream it or you can purchase it and you're putting out awesome content. So they're going to follow you because of that after they see your ad, I mean, you are, you really are priming yourself for success and it's going to make that those look like audiences worth it.

Barry Nicholson (51:17):

Yeah, absolutely. So, all right. So set now that we've so really, I mean, I really, your, your book really does a great job of just kind of encapsulating the most important things. These are the things to focus on. There's so many other things you can get so distracted with, but, you know, it's just creating content on a regular basis, releasing on a regular basis, creating connections with those fans, engaging, um, you know, advertising the right, the high, the high quality content. Um, now you kind of, it seemed like you sort of ended with live shows. What do you find it that you have a lot of artists that you run into that haven't done live shows or don't really know much about that or what's yeah,

Levi Burwell (52:00):

It's funny. And I had a feeling that you would ask about this by the way. Um, because a lot of people do in live shows by putting it 10th in the steps, uh, in the blueprint. I'm not saying to wait until all of these other steps are complete until you start booking and playing live shows. But I guess what I'm trying to say when I put it at the end is, um, if you do these preceding nine things, first, it is going to put yourself in the position to actually sell tickets and fill a venue. Um, if you are, you know, if you have a solid brand and you're attracting people to become followers, so that they're seeing when you are playing live shows that when you're touring, um, if you're doing social media ads that are specifically for your live show, um, you know, all of those sorts of things kind of play into selling tickets in the end and actually filling a venue.

Barry Nicholson (52:57):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I get that all the time. I mean, because our band has never toured and now I'm really, you know, like we've sold six, 7,000 CDs around the country. I'm like, yeah, maybe we should just tour Texas, you know? Cause there's a lot of big cities in Texas or even Ohio. There's a lot of big cities in Ohio. Yeah. You know, um, I mean, do you think that's a valid thing, do you think artists should still tour in an age where they can just live stream? And what do you think about that?

Levi Burwell (53:25):

You know, I wouldn't say that it's definitely, I think that an artist has performed live and whether that comes to touring that's I think that kind of progresses. Um, but it, at the end of the day, it goes back to step one at the blueprint, if that's their goal, you know, a lot of look at the Beatles. For example, we, I brought up the Beatles, they started off performing live strictly and putting out albums to go along with those, those shows and tours, but then they just wanted to record that was their goal was just be in the studio. Um, so I think if it's an artist goal to perform live and I personally think it should be, um, then eventually they are going to get to the point where more people are going to want to see them. And so they are going to have to tour. Um, I definitely agree. Start in your bubble and then kind of expand from there. Look at your, your analytics on Instagram and look at your target marketing results on Facebook to see where your fans are. Like who's buying CDs, like, like you were saying and go to those cities. Um, and then definitely, but no matter what with live shows, I always saw artists just rehearse, rehearse, rehearse, brand the show. Otherwise it's just going to be a dud.

Barry Nicholson (54:42):

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's that thing of, because that's definitely stuff that I also caught from your book. It's like you have one chance to make a first impression. We always hear that, but things like broken links or, um, you know, social media profiles and haven't been, you know, it's like a ghost town when you go there, you know, you look at the, and people do that. I mean, you judge, you know, I, I definitely see that, you know, like, um, there's an artist that I, Marcus king, I don't know if you've, if you've heard Marcus king, great blues guitar players got to one of the best new albums that I've heard in many years. Um, but I find myself going to a social media now. He's definitely one of these guys that, that, that post a lot more on Instagram than he does on Facebook.

Barry Nicholson (55:26):

Um, but there's no real reason for that. Plus he also has a record label too. I'm kind of, I find myself judging his record label. Like, why don't you guys put the same content on Facebook? Why would I go to your Facebook profile? Does it look like it's the bastard stepchild of Instagram, which posting five, you could, all you gotta do is click the button to cross post, and you may be listening to this or watching this. And you don't realize that you can use a tool that Facebook provides called creator studio. Um, and I would all, if you have a Facebook page, you can use it. You don't have to, it's not about advertising. It's just, it's a cool tool that you can use that will post, um, you can easily post, cross post, I guess, is what they call it. You know, your, your content on Instagram will automatically update your Facebook page as well.

Barry Nicholson (56:13):

Because guys like me, I'm on Facebook a lot more often than I am on Instagram, you know, but if it's just a click of a button, why not cross post, you know, just makes you look like you're on top of things. And that's, that's what you're saying is that, that, you know, things like broken links are not having, you know, stuff that works. Those are little things they're ticky-tacky and they drive you nuts. And that's, that's the thing I've always said about being a marketing professional is that I didn't realize it becoming a, you know, cause I'm a copywriter by trade that's my, you know, I just liked to write and write persuasive copy. Uh, I didn't realize I had to be a tech nerd and geek to go along with it. You know, it's like everything right now requires technology. Um, and I am going to do a shameless plug for our upcoming app that we're developing.

Barry Nicholson (57:00):

That's what the music money TV podcast is about is we're actually developing a fan club app to make it easy for fans or for artists to have fan clubs, um, and not be super techie. Just click, click the button and, and get it done. But, um, well I tell you what Levi, you have been a great guest. I really appreciate, um, some of the insights and some of the conversations that we've had. Um, once again, get kind of, if you would just encapsulate your book again, just give us the title again, and where's the best place to get it and to learn more about you. How, how do people get ahold of you? Yeah,

Levi Burwell (57:34):

Definitely. So the book is called groundwork for artists. It's a 10 step guide to organic growth in today's music industry. Um, you can get it on Amazon in paperback or Kindle version. And you can follow me at Levi Burwell on Instagram. That's basically the only one I'm on right now. But yeah, I'd appreciate if you check the book out. I think all artists can get a lot of value and de-stress from, from reading it and following the steps. Nice.

Barry Nicholson (58:06):

And I have to second that I did, I did read through it, albeit it quickly. I did read through it though. I can speed read, and it really does have some great stuff in there. And I, I plan on using it myself to kind of go in and like, okay, very, this is, you know, we got to get our marketing act together here and shore up the things that you, I pretty much know that I should do, but again, if you, if you hear things and you don't act on them, what good is it? You know? So, um, again, thanks so much flyby. We really appreciated having you on the podcast and best of luck to you. Thanks so much. Appreciate it. Thanks.

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Barry Nicholson

Barry Nicholson is the host & founder of The Music Money Podcast & Youtube Channel. He is the bandleader, bassist & lead singer for Reverend Barry & The Funk, as well as the Marketing Director for PS Group Holdings.

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